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    sonicbomb.com :: View topic - THE MYSTERY AROUND CHINA'S NUCLEAR ARSENAL

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    Post new topic Reply to topic  sonicbomb.com Forum Index » China's Nuclear Weapons Program
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    Graviton
    Yankee (13.5 mt)


    Joined: Sep 03, 2006
    Posts: 1565
    Location: USA

    PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 4:32 am Reply with quote

    segregator236 wrote:
    Wait - I thought that the Soviets traded technology with China for uranium. This says that the Chinese did, in fact, make their own fuel.


    Raw fuel stock for future enrichment is far different from providing already processed uranium.

    The Chinese also had increasingly bad relations with the Soviets, so it would make sense that they would focus on making their own in preparation for a cutoff of Soviet assistance.

    Making the fuel is not a big deal once the expertise to do such has been passed onto the Chinese.
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    segregator236
    Sunset (1 mt)


    Joined: Jun 24, 2007
    Posts: 104
    Location: Burnaby, BC, Canada

    PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 2:21 am Reply with quote

    BTW, China also spent a long time working on their concepts on their own. But creating uranium was not easy for China, since they had little advanced equipment to do so.
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    Graviton
    Yankee (13.5 mt)


    Joined: Sep 03, 2006
    Posts: 1565
    Location: USA

    PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 3:20 am Reply with quote

    segregator236 wrote:
    BTW, China also spent a long time working on their concepts on their own. But creating uranium was not easy for China, since they had little advanced equipment to do so.


    Yet ... again, the Russians gave them the critical equipment for their weapons program, and much knowledge gathered from the Manhatten Project.

    Even the Russians had over 100 000 stole documents sent from spies in USA, by 1953.
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    Graviton
    Yankee (13.5 mt)


    Joined: Sep 03, 2006
    Posts: 1565
    Location: USA

    PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 3:20 am Reply with quote

    segregator236 wrote:
    BTW, China also spent a long time working on their concepts on their own. But creating uranium was not easy for China, since they had little advanced equipment to do so.


    Yet ... again, the Russians gave them the critical equipment for their weapons program, and much knowledge gathered from the Manhatten Project.

    Even the Russians had over 100 000 stolen, classified documents sent from spies in USA, by 1953. I should dig up the video that testifies to this from a mainstream documentary I have.
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    segregator236
    Sunset (1 mt)


    Joined: Jun 24, 2007
    Posts: 104
    Location: Burnaby, BC, Canada

    PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 5:47 am Reply with quote

    So you are saying that some of the stuff the Soviets gave to China were stolen from American scientific projects?
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    azer2692
    Cherokee (3.8 mt)


    Joined: Aug 04, 2006
    Posts: 447

    PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 6:11 am Reply with quote

    China's nuclear weapon develop by "themselves"(China people)
    and China's nuclear scientists mostly from USA
    Soviet gave China less than half of nuclear imformation that not enough to building nuclear industry
    i saw too many documents or documentaries about China nuclear program
    so general speaking is
    all equipments made by China
    base knowledge from Russia or USA and increasing these knowledge by themselves
    China under Mao led and said :we would rather atom than pants
    China had a big ambition when they are poor
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    Graviton
    Yankee (13.5 mt)


    Joined: Sep 03, 2006
    Posts: 1565
    Location: USA

    PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 3:36 pm Reply with quote

    azer2692 wrote:
    China's nuclear weapon develop by "themselves"(China people)
    and China's nuclear scientists mostly from USA
    Soviet gave China less than half of nuclear imformation that not enough to building nuclear industry
    i saw too many documents or documentaries about China nuclear program
    so general speaking is
    all equipments made by China
    base knowledge from Russia or USA and increasing these knowledge by themselves
    China under Mao led and said :we would rather atom than pants
    China had a big ambition when they are poor


    Yet it is far easier to build their own things with the knowledge donated or stolen from other countries.

    I fact, no nuclear nation in history has built a nuclear bomb by themselves, without knowledge shared or stolen from other nations. USA also had many key scientists from Europe, China, and the UK assisting in developing nuclear bombs during the Manhatten Project. The UK later pooled ex-Manhatten scientists' knowledge of their work on Manhatten to continue on their way. Russians had over 100 000 stolen documents that drove Kurchatov to deep skepticism of the integrity of stolen documents, there were so many secrets handed over from far left sympathizers in USA weapons program. China also received nuclear engineering skills from Russians that spun off into weapons research, since there are clear principles about fission and fusion technologies.
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    Graviton
    Yankee (13.5 mt)


    Joined: Sep 03, 2006
    Posts: 1565
    Location: USA

    PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 1:52 am Reply with quote

    It is far easier to physically build their own things with the knowledge donated or stolen from other countries. Russians even gave them plans to many technologies, including centrifuges.

    Another factor is that Manhatten was a huge gamble on the fact that scientists had no idea of how much fissionable material could be handled competently or if it would even work at all, considering the immense cost of the program.

    In fact, no nuclear nation in history has built a nuclear bomb by themselves, without knowledge shared or stolen from other nations. USA also had many key scientists from Europe, China, and the UK assisting in developing nuclear bombs during the Manhatten Project. The UK later pooled ex-Manhatten scientists' knowledge of their work on Manhatten to continue on their way. Russians had over 100 000 stolen documents that drove Kurchatov to deep skepticism of the integrity of stolen documents, there were so many secrets handed over from far left sympathizers in USA weapons program. China also received nuclear engineering skills from Russians that spun off into weapons research, since there are clear principles about fission and fusion technologies.

    FIXED, but earlier double was due to buggy phpBB forum software.
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    Teller25
    Cherokee (3.8 mt)


    Joined: Aug 22, 2007
    Posts: 254
    Location: Spain

    PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 3:17 pm Reply with quote

    Graviton wrote:

    Among the great, false rumors of the world about nuclear weapons was that the CIA gave the bomb to the Israelis. Research shows this is not true. It was actually France that provided the key details the Israelis needed.


    It seems fair that if the Jewish scientist gave the bomb to America then America gave the bomb to Israel, anyway since there are prominent Jews in the nuclear programs of 4 of the 5 nuclear powers, they could have potentially have gotten the designs and test data from any of them.

    Returning to the PRC thread, I think they made the bomb pretty much by themselves, specially their Hydrogen Bomb, since no nation was crazy enough to cooperate to make them obtain a thermonuclear warhead.

    What really puzzles me is the “official” size of their strategic nuclear arsenal,

    “Rather than continue to grow, China's stockpile appears to have leveled out at approximately 200 warheads in the mid-1980s and remained at about that level ever since.“

    Chinese nuclear forces, 2006, Natural Resources Defense Council (2006), US


    “we estimate that China deploys approximately 130 nuclear warheads for delivery by land-based missiles, sea-based missiles, and bombers. Additional warheads are thought to be in storage for a total stockpile of approximately 200 warheads.”

    Chinese nuclear forces, 2006, Natural Resources Defense Council, US.

    if it is true that it is so small, it is NOT a credible deterrent since it could be taken out by American Forces using only a fraction of the firepower of a single sub, so what’s the deal?, A confrontation with American forces is not an unconceivable scenario, in fact it is becoming more likely as their economy grows, and many US warheads are now changing to Chinese targets, they are really at the point of making missiles like sausages, and multiplying their strategic nuclear capabilities many fold would not hurt their giant economy, but apparently they have chosen not to, I can’t figure out why, do they just plan to loose a nuclear exchange?, are they not going to repeat the Soviet’s mistake and they are waiting to start their cold war only after they have more money than their opponent? or are they doing it secretly… and rumors that they have about 4000 bombs are true?
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    Graviton
    Yankee (13.5 mt)


    Joined: Sep 03, 2006
    Posts: 1565
    Location: USA

    PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 6:57 pm Reply with quote

    Quote:
    It seems fair that if the Jewish scientist gave the bomb to America then America gave the bomb to Israel, anyway since there are prominent Jews in the nuclear programs of 4 of the 5 nuclear powers, they could have potentially have gotten the designs and test data from any of them.


    It is true that most of the early, leading scientists (a small group) of the Manhatten Project were Jewish, but it is simply untue to say that they gave the world the bomb. It is also not true to call visionaries people who gave us the bomb, despite the credit for driving perseverance against political and more practical obstacles. In reality it took thousands of scientists, engineers, including explosives and materials experts, metallurgists, electrical engineers, computer operators, and chemists to figure this thing out. It's gravely mistaken to put the weight of the program on a few breakthroughs that reached the press, which is a sad consequence of popular mentality of masses to grossly oversimplify.

    China:

    It's oversimplified to give the Chinese so much unitary credit for the technology, compared to the fact that crossover technologies of nuclear reactors and other, parallel technologies already were spreading worldwide by the 1950s, since fission and fusion processes are those that apply to all areas of the advanced universe, and our Sun, a star, functions by fusion. Of course espionage and carryover technology from the Russians and earlier Manhatten Project scientists of the Kuomintang, nationalist government going back to China helped alot -- especially after the revolution changing the political character of China into an adversary.
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    thefollower
    Fizzle
    Fizzle


    Joined: Dec 10, 2010
    Posts: 1

    PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 12:27 am Reply with quote

    Graviton wrote:


    http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/china/nuke/index.html

    The important fact is that technology leaps ahead with spinoff technologies that often can be applied both to civilian and military purposes.

    So did the Chinese do it all alone? The simple answer is no. In fact, no nation has done it alone so far. Even South Africa had help from Israel.


    Now I know that spinoff technologies can be applied both to civilian and military purposes.


    _______________
    military knife
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    Teller25
    Cherokee (3.8 mt)


    Joined: Aug 22, 2007
    Posts: 254
    Location: Spain

    PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 6:20 am Reply with quote

    Graviton wrote:

    It is true that most of the early, leading scientists (a small group) of the Manhatten Project were Jewish, but it is simply untue to say that they gave the world the bomb. It is also not true to call visionaries people who gave us the bomb, despite the credit for driving perseverance against political and more practical obstacles. In reality it took thousands of scientists, engineers, including explosives and materials experts, metallurgists, electrical engineers, computer operators, and chemists to figure this thing out. It's gravely mistaken to put the weight of the program on a few breakthroughs that reached the press, which is a sad consequence of popular mentality of masses to grossly oversimplify.



    I'm sorry I let this one go until now, but no question that Jewish scientists invented the bomb.

    How could the bomb be made without Einstein's E=mc2?, withouth Szilard basically discovering chain reaction while crossing the street, without the work of Bethe, Bohr, Teller, Feynman, Oppenheimer, Ulam, Wigner, Rabi,
    von Neumann and dozens of other top scientists that I left out, not to mention hundreds of engineers chemist and metalurgists which were jewish. There was no way to even think of the possibility of this weapon withouth the jews, was America going to wait until a team composed of Enrico Fermi and Jessica Simpson's Grandmother made the theorethical breakthroughs and calculations instead? I don't think so.Smile

    Remember that those thousands of Americans who worked on the Manhattan project that you suppose were essential in making the bomb did not even know what they were doing, and the same goes for the Soviet program, and the same goes for the H-bomb, and the same goes for the Neutron bomb, so not only early research.
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