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    sonicbomb.com :: View topic - B-2 caught fire before crashing

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    Teller25
    Cherokee (3.8 mt)


    Joined: Aug 22, 2007
    Posts: 254
    Location: Spain

    PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 9:26 pm Reply with quote

    A fire was reported shortly after take off by one of its pilots, an unnamed senior Air Combat Command official reportedly told Aviation Week. The B-2 then “rolled uncontrollably to the right” and crashed between the ramp and the taxiway at 10:45 a.m. Saturday in Guam time, the magazine reported.

    http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2008/02/airforce_B2_crash_022608w/

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    sonicbomb
    Forum Admin
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    Joined: Aug 06, 2006
    Posts: 1712
    Location: UK

    PostPosted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 6:23 am Reply with quote

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    Graviton
    Yankee (13.5 mt)


    Joined: Sep 03, 2006
    Posts: 1552
    Location: USA

    PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 4:22 am Reply with quote

    THERE'S THE BUG: Windows.

    ----


    GOVERNMENT NEWS

    GCN July 13, 1998

    Software glitches leave Navy Smart Ship dead in the water

    By Gregory Slabodkin
    GCN Staff

    The Navy's Smart Ship technology may not be as smart as the service
    contends.

    Although PCs have reduced workloads for sailors aboard the Aegis missile
    cruiser USS Yorktown, software glitches resulted in system failures and
    crippled ship operations, according to Navy officials.

    Navy brass have called the Yorktown Smart Ship pilot a success in
    reducing manpower, maintenance and costs. The Navy began running
    shipboard applications under Microsoft Windows NT so that fewer sailors
    would be needed to control key ship functions.

    But the Navy last fall learned a difficult lesson about automation: The
    very information technology on which the ships depend also makes them
    vulnerable. The Yorktown last September suffered a systems failure when
    bad data was fed into its computers during maneuvers off the coast of
    Cape Charles, Va.

    The ship had to be towed into the Naval base at Norfolk, Va., because a
    database overflow caused its propulsion system to fail, according to
    Anthony DiGiorgio, a civilian engineer with the Atlantic Fleet Technical
    Support Center in Norfolk.

    We are putting equipment in the engine room that we cannot maintain and, then
    it fails, results in a critical failure, DiGiorgio said. It took two days of
    pierside maintenance to fix the problem.

    The Yorktown has been towed into port after other systems failures, he
    said.

    Not officially

    Atlantic Fleet officials acknowledged that the Yorktown last September
    experienced what they termed an engineering local area network casualty,
    but denied that the ships systems failure lasted as long as DiGiorgio
    said. The Yorktown was dead in the water for about two hours and 45
    minutes, fleet officials said, and did not have to be towed in.

    This is the only time this casualty has occurred and the only propulsion
    casualty involved with the control system since May 2, 1997, when
    software configuration was frozen, Vice Adm. Henry Giffin, commander of
    the Atlantic Fleets Naval Surface Force, reported in an Oct. 24, 1997,
    memorandum.

    Giffin wrote the memo to describe what really happened in hope of
    clearing the scuttlebutt surrounding the incident, he noted.

    The Yorktown lost control of its propulsion system because its computers
    were unable to divide by the number zero, the memo said. The Yorktown's
    Standard Monitoring Control System administrator entered zero into the
    data field for the Remote Data Base Manager program. That caused the
    database to overflow and crash all LAN consoles and miniature remote
    terminal units, the memo said.

    The program administrators are trained to bypass a bad data field and
    change the value if such a problem occurs again, Atlantic Fleet officials
    said.

    But the Yorktown's failure in September 1997 was not as simple as
    reported, DiGiorgio said.

    If you understand computers, you know that a computer normally is
    immune to the character of the data it processes, he wrote in the
    June U.S. Naval Institutes Proceedings Magazine. Your $2.95 calculator, for
    example, gives you a zero when you try to divide a number by zero, and
    does not stop executing the next set of instructions. It seems that the
    computers on the Yorktown were not designed to tolerate such a simple
    failure.

    The Navy reduced the Yorktown crew by 10 percent and saved more than
    $2.8 million a year using the computers. The ship uses dual 200-MHz Pentium
    Pros from Intergraph Corp. of Huntsville, Ala. The PCs and server run NT 4.0
    over a high-speed, fiber-optic LAN.

    Blame it on the OS

    But according to DiGiorgio, who in an interview said he has serviced
    automated control systems on Navy ships for the past 26 years, the NT
    operating system is the source of the Yorktowns computer problems.

    NT applications aboard the Yorktown provide damage control, run the
    ships control center on the bridge, monitor the engines and navigate
    the ship when under way.

    Using Windows NT, which is known to have some failure modes, on a
    warship is similar to hoping that luck will be in our favor, DiGiorgio said.

    Pacific and Atlantic fleets in March 1997 selected NT 4.0 as the standard
    OS for both networks and PCs as part of the Navy's Information
    Technology for the 21st Century initiative. Current guidance approved by
    the Navy's chief information officer calls for all new applications to run under NT.

    Ron Redman, deputy technical director of the Fleet Introduction Division
    of the Aegis Program Executive Office, said there have been numerous
    software failures associated with NT aboard the Yorktown.

    Refining that is an ongoing process, Redman said. Unix is a better system
    for control of equipment and machinery, whereas NT is a better system for
    the transfer of information and data. NT has never been fully refined and
    there are times when we have had shutdowns that resulted from NT.

    Hauled in

    The Yorktown has been towed into port several times because of the
    systems failures, he said.

    Because of politics, some things are being forced on us that without
    political pressure we might not do, like Windows NT, Redman said. If it
    were up to me I probably would not have used Windows NT in this
    particular application. If we used Unix, we would have a system that has
    less of a tendency to go down.

    Although Unix is more reliable, Redman said, NT may become more reliable with time.

    The Navy is moving the services command and control applications from
    Unix to NT as part of IT-21. Under IT-21, the Navy also plans to
    modernize ships in the Atlantic and Pacific fleets with asynchronous
    transfer mode LANs. Large ATM networks running NT have already been
    installed on the USS Abraham Lincoln and USS Essex.

    But DiGiorgio said the LANs might experience a chain reaction of computer
    failures like those experienced on the Yorktown. That domino effect is
    inherent to the system design of shipboard LANs, he said.

    There is very little segregation of error when software shares bad data,
    DiGiorgio said. Instead of one computer knocking off on the Yorktown,
    they all did, one after the other. What if this happened in actual
    combat?

    Although the Yorktown did not have backup systems, Redman said that
    future Smart Ships will have systems redundancy to ensure that ships can
    continue to operate.

    But DiGiorgio said that the Smart Ship project needs to do more
    engineering up front.

    Installing a control system on a warship and resolving problems as the
    project progresses is a costly and naive process, DiGiorgio wrote in the
    Proceedings article. Now, with the top people rotated off the Smart Ship
    Project, it would be wise for the Navy to investigate this fiasco more
    fully.

    Redman has a different perspective. If it were me, I wouldnt say all the
    things that Tony [DiGiorgio] has said out of discretion and consideration
    for being a long-term employee, he said. But I will say this about Tony,
    hes a very bright engineer.

    Everybody plays the obedience role where you cannot criticize the system,
    said DiGiorgio, a self-described whistle-blower. I'm not that kind of guy.

    Despite the USS Yorktown's setbacks, the Navy plans to use Smart Ship
    technology on other classes of ships. The Naval Sea Systems Command in
    May awarded Litton Integrated Systems Corp. of Woodland Hills, Calif., a
    $138.6 million contract to build Engineering Control System Equipment and
    Integrated Bridge Systems for CG-47 Class Aegis cruisers. The Navy also
    might install the equipment on DDG-51 class destroyers. Electronic Design
    Inc. of Metairie, La., filed a protest of the award in late May with the
    General Accounting Office. The Navy has issued a stop-work order that
    will last until GAO rules on the protest. Smart Ship technology is also
    on the amphibious ship USS Rushmore, Navy officials said.
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    Mack Bolan
    Cherokee (3.8 mt)


    Joined: Aug 13, 2007
    Posts: 379

    PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 6:52 am Reply with quote

    Wait until one of those "glitches" accidentally fires off something... Surprised
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    Teller25
    Cherokee (3.8 mt)


    Joined: Aug 22, 2007
    Posts: 254
    Location: Spain

    PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 2:10 am Reply with quote

    VIDEO.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnSgp8ZhwWI
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    fastfission
    Cherokee (3.8 mt)


    Joined: Apr 14, 2007
    Posts: 425
    Location: Arzamas-16

    PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 11:11 pm Reply with quote

    There goes a $2Bn already-obsolete piece of hardware.

    Being as there have been no airburst tests since the 70's, has everyone forgotten about the effects of EMP on electronic systems?

    And being as Windows is not entirely 100% at the best of times, all these "smart" computer based systems would surely become pretty "dumb" once a high altitude fusion weapon was detonated anywhere in, say, a 1000 mile radius?

    The West used to take the piss out of valve based Mig-21s until someone thought about EMP. The entire plane was a Faraday cage and pretty much immune to EMP. With the effects of EMP a distant memory, avionics appears to have taken a step backwards. All this tech would collapse if things really went "hot"....

    FF
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    Graviton
    Yankee (13.5 mt)


    Joined: Sep 03, 2006
    Posts: 1552
    Location: USA

    PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 11:29 pm Reply with quote

    Quote:
    There goes a $2Bn already-obsolete piece of hardware.


    It isn't obsolete.

    It will only be obsolete with a number of remote control bombers coming into existence, which is some time away.
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    fastfission
    Cherokee (3.8 mt)


    Joined: Apr 14, 2007
    Posts: 425
    Location: Arzamas-16

    PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 12:04 am Reply with quote

    Still $2Bn down the drain.....

    That's a lot to pay for an aircraft that is not really radar invisible anymore.

    Will they build any further given the state of the US economy and the soon-to-be $250 barrel of oil?

    FF
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    Blake
    Tewa (5 mt)


    Joined: Jun 25, 2007
    Posts: 680
    Location: Florida

    PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 12:28 pm Reply with quote

    fastfission wrote:
    That's a lot to pay for an aircraft that is not really radar invisible anymore.
    FF


    I don't think it was ever really "invisible" to begin with. It's a low-observable technology aircraft. Exact performance specs are still classified, obviously. It must not be too obsolete if they're redesigning the weapons system to hit multiple moving ground targets in adverse weather from stand-off ranges.
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    sonicbomb
    Forum Admin
    Forum Admin


    Joined: Aug 06, 2006
    Posts: 1712
    Location: UK

    PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 12:52 pm Reply with quote

    If the systems ran or Linux or FreeBSD then the pilots beards would'nt fit under their oxygen masks.
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    Blake
    Tewa (5 mt)


    Joined: Jun 25, 2007
    Posts: 680
    Location: Florida

    PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 12:54 pm Reply with quote

    sonicbomb wrote:
    If the systems ran or Linux or FreeBSD then the pilots beards would'nt fit under their oxygen masks.


    I don't get it. Sorry. Embarassed
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    sonicbomb
    Forum Admin
    Forum Admin


    Joined: Aug 06, 2006
    Posts: 1712
    Location: UK

    PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 1:53 pm Reply with quote

    UNIX OS's are often associated with beardy geeks, a bed joke thats all.
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